Thought experiment: You can spend 10-15€ on spotify each month, meaning 120-180€ per year. For music there can disappear at any moment and that you'll never own, or you can spend 10-15€ each months to buy an album on Bandcamp (or any other service that provides DRM-free downloads), support the artists more and retain your personal music library even when Bandcamp goes out of business.

The former is a subscription plan, the latter is an investment plan.

@sheogorath I stopped subscribing to Spotify a long time ago and now I mostly buy my j-pop from CDs or at ototoy. It's not like I really listen to anything else anyway :D

@uniporn I don't really need input on it, since I don't have a spotify subscription, it was just something that went through my head while listening to a podcast that mentioned that they probably spend 1000€ on spotify subscriptions over the past years.

However, you are more than welcome to further illustrate the thought with your own ideas :)

@sheogorath yeah, subscriptions can quite rake up...
oh, and when I asked this thought seemed less banal than "oh, and if there is not enough music to listen to in the beginning, just pirate some and make sure to throw money on it later" but that's basically it 🙈

@sheogorath Amen.

Here's an example of some of my earnings as an artist through Spotify and similar streaming services.

I think in total I've gotten about 5 dollars in the past 6 years.

Bandcamp on the other hand has been a lot better to me and has actually allowed me to at least end up at 0 instead of in minus.

@esi would you be comfortable to share more about how spotify (or other platforms) work from an artists side? Is this list like "each time a song has been played"? Why do some say "10%" and others not? Is there a minimum sum you need to achieve to get a payout or could you theoretically ask to be paid out 15cents? Are there other fees you need to pay *them* (payout fee? Listing fee? ...)

@claudius I would be comfortable with sharing but because of some health problems I don't have much energy to collect the information to share. But here's a rough writeup.

- The 10% part is where I've been collaborating with other artists so there's a split in revenue.
- I am distributing my music to all the services via distrokid. I guess there is a minimum sum on each service and then a minimum sum on distrokid for a payout. I am not sure what it is though.

The fees for me to pay depend on the distributor. In this case I pay an annual fee to them for distributing my music and keeping my music listed. So yeah, it all depends on your distributor. Some might have a flat one off fee, some might have an annual subscription, and some might take a % of sales.

In other words, it depends.

(just checked distrokid. It's 20 USD a year, they take no % off sales)

@claudius oh and regarding if this list is about each song played. I am not 100% sure but I think so yes.

@esi Thank you! This stuff is really opaque from a listener's point of view. This is great information!

@claudius The scary thing is that this is also extremely opaque from an artist's point of view. We have no say in how much they pays us, and we don't even get notified if payments per stream (or however they calculate this) change. They just pay and we shut up.

I only put my music on spotify for exposure. And that's scary.

Honestly, I would probably get more* money directly from putting my music on torrent sites. As it stands right now my streaming rev is in the negative numbers.

@esi @sheogorath @kensanata my album on bandcamp sold a couple times and I made like, actual dollars. pretty sweet. I haven’t got shit from Spotify, despite having _some_ plays on there (not much at all tho)

@esi @sheogorath wait, are you saying artists are not better off in Bandcamp?

@GOwin @sheogorath hmmm, no. I said I ended up in 0 instead of minus. As in, when you factor in the production cost of an album I managed to recoup the costs. For Spotify though I am paying more for keeping my music there than I am getting back from them.

@sheogorath you miss the possibility that the music a person likes might not be on that platform.

@MTRNord @sheogorath I think the key point here is buying over renting, whatever the providers. Bandcamp is good but of course it doesn't have everything, but neither does Spotify, and there are other ways of buying music out there

@jkb @MTRNord I also want to point out, that it's obviously still not for everyone, as spotify simply provides a certain degree of discovery of music.

However, I try to make it clear that you spend 120€ per year on music, which loses it's value immediately, when using spotify.

Investing this 120€ into your music collection can grow it by a few albums a year increasing it's value constantly.

@MTRNord @sheogorath on what, on bandcamp?

Exactly _what_ type of music is not on Bandcamp?

I mean, I found freaking Pig Destroyer there today, and seriously considered buying a FSOL album (but it would have to be shipped and while I want the vinyl, I don't want to deal with shipping right now) and a friend gifted me something on my wishlist which was electronic, and then I bought a bunch of chiptune stuff from a musician friend of mine, and last month I did ambient and soul and was seriously thinking I'd get the new Bob Mould album, and last month also had rap (oldschool) and punk, and then after I bought it today about 8 suggestions came from people including Hawaiian influenced punk... I mean seriously if you can't find music you like on Bandcamp, you _DO NOT LIKE MUSIC._
(Also they have noise, and I have bought noise albums there.)

Seriously that's like "I don't go to record stores because they may not have an album I like" and "yeah, no."

@popolon @MTRNord @sheogorath Possibly...
That seems to be a French latinization of the name, similar to 'Cithara' for English; and searching for that comes up with numerous 'kithara' things (which is likely another stringed instrument) ; ;

This soundtrack is named such;

Here is a 'communist death metal' band which has an album called which might;

Here's a fellow from Ghana which mentions it...

Basially: there's not "nothing" when you search for it, but instead, "here are artists and music." And you can just see/hear. And that's how I've found a load of music (:

@Truck @MTRNord @sheogorath no that's not latinisation, 'tiahun' is a term from one of the numerous languages of Burkina Faso (behind the official common french language due to colonisation). There are numerous forms of zithers around the world with different sounds, This one is shared with it's neighbours countries with several names depending on languages. This is a flat cithare with strings made of drieds plants.
@MTRNord @Truck @sheogorath Sorry this is the only one reference I found to hear it:
"By the bwaba people of Bondoukuy region fof Burkina Faso" So this term is from bwaba language.

@popolon Hit them with a bug report, and encourage any French artists there to also do that. I'll shoot them a message too. I have _no_ idea how it is in Finnish (I would guess "abysmal." Most EVERYTHING is horribly translated for Finnish, and Finns just say "don't. Use the English." French, you have a chance, it's Indo-European. Finnish isn't (: So you get "well this must be translated with Indo-European style grammatical rules" and "nope.gif" (: )

@popolon @MTRNord @sheogorath

Well, I hadn't had enough tea, and the first place I found the term was Wikipedia, the website where anyone can edit the "truth" so it reads something completely wrong. Thus why I normally ignore Wankopedia. According to Wankopedia, it's a latinization. At least on the English side, and the French page is the one that popped up first, and it _appears_ to me to say the same thing... but that is due to my lack of skill at reading French (I'm at extreme basic "translation" level - much below my Finnish - and my Finnish is still very not-able-to-read-much.)

@Truck @MTRNord @sheogorath It's a very bold statement to suggest that the fractional amount of music on Bandcamp is what people must like to "like music". One of my favourite artists has a whole album missing off Bandcamp, I like all his music, including that album so what does that mean? Lets not forget all the music that isn't even on spotify, let alone bandcamp. Like Japanese 80s City Pop, which is quite popular.

@dook @MTRNord @sheogorath It's an even bolder statement to say that the only way to like music is to pay the slavery fee to the labels that only distribute through

You get me? It's not about _distribution method._ It's about _music._ And if you only care that an artist is available via _one_ distribution method_ then you don't like _music_ you're a _fan_ of something else.

So yes, I agree with you.

@Truck @MTRNord @sheogorath ymmv, but most of what I want is not there. For example the ecm catalogue. That said, I can use bandcamp for many things.

@theothornhill @MTRNord @sheogorath

I find a LOT there, and I do check. The latest Mastodon album was there for a day, I can still find it in my wishlist, but I can't buy it. But it _was_ there for a short time. The label probably intervened and quite frankly, that just means I'll buy a physical copy. I'm not going to any streaming service for 'rental.' Screw that noise.

@Truck @MTRNord @sheogorath I understand, and generally I agree. The Neil-Young-Gate proves everybodys point: the music is gone, but not to be found on bandcamp. That's a bummer.

@sheogorath sporadically spend $CURRENCY for Tidal hifi and use tidal-dl to download the entirety of music ever :^)

Bandcamp aside I just don't listen to music because of that reason.

I just hope that such proprietary setup does not become standard for #podcasts . They are trying to pull them in. And for a reason I do not understand customers seem to follow 🤔

@sheogorath I was writing about the same thing yesterday. Even if you still want to use a streaming service, there are a number of services that you can self host for free and have all the music that you ever want, and you're not going to have to worry about the upcoming balkanization of streaming services as artists move to different exclusive services, and you don't need to worry about your favorite songs getting removed because they said something that someone in Southern California doesn't like, and you don't need to worry about your favorite lyrics being rewritten because you don't have any permanent copy of the data.

We all need to start taking control back. the problem is the instant gratification of having access to All The Music* immediately with the subscription services as opposed to having to build a library

(I agree with you, for the record (ha))

@sheogorath The idea is not bad. I had it a few times and calculated it through for my collection. Given I cancel my Spotify subscription immediately and put the money I save every month into buying the complete music I "saved"/favorited there, it would take ~18 years for me to pay off. Even a quite restricted selection would take about seven years. And that's only if I don't find any new music. But what I'm about to start is buying music I really like anyway to support the artists. plus pretty much all smartphones have enough storage and nice music players to keep and sync your very own music files

Not sure how much you know about history. This is exactly how the world worked before streaming.
Just that we bought music on little discs from catalogs or at concerts.

According to this video I watched a while ago, the subscription model is already present in the gaming world and only to get bigger.
It probably just makes loads of money and people move in from things really quickly

@sheogorath exactly why i am still buying mp3 instead of renting access.

@sheogorath I would really like to do that (I don't use Spotify either, tho) but what other services sell DRMfree music (a catalog compared to Spotify, let's say)?. I swear I've never found the artist I was looking for on bandcamp.

Let's say I want to buy a Jamiroquai album ( these are the option offered by the artists themselves.

@sheogorath This is actually something I decided to do this year, buy an album each month off Bandcamp. I do technically spend less on Spotify as my family share a subscription, but I want to future-proof my music collection and support artists more.

@sheogorath bandcamp doesn't have any of the music I want to listen to

@sheogorath And this is supposed to be a surprising revelation or "thought experiment"? Of course you can buy music monthly. Or you can, for the same price, subscribe to music library which you don't own and which contains millions of music tracks. Is there someone in the world who does not understand the difference?

@fuxoft no, not supposed to be surprising. Maybe the prefix "thought experiment" isn't perfect, usually I prefix things just with "thought", just felt like "thought experiment" fit there as well. As a nonnative speaker, I happen to misuse words from time to time. I apologise.

The main idea was to help people to question their decision about going for a Spotify subscription and maybe reassure them in their decision or motivate them to build something more sustainable.

@sheogorath Spotify is software as a service; there's no intention of having a product to keep, express or implied. You're paying for the right to listen to music while the service is available and while your subscription is maintained. You typically wouldn't tell a cinema to stuff it because you didn't get to take home a copy of the movie after you left. Same model here.

@bear I'm not trying to say that Spotify should change anything ^^

But you as a customer may ask yourself if it might be worth to buy the movies instead of visiting the cinema every time you want to watch them, especially if you revisit the same movies frequently.

So I rather invite you, and everyone else, to question the decision for the Spotify subscription or if you could spend the same money for some lasting value. :)

@sheogorath You can use Spotify for free if you use an ad blocker so there’s no point paying for it anyway. However, I do subscribe to Qobuz.

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